Legislature(2003 - 2004)

05/06/2004 08:16 AM Senate JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
              SENATE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                          May 6, 2004                                                                                           
                           8:16 a.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
TAPE(S) 04-65,66                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator Ralph Seekins, Chair                                                                                                    
Senator Scott Ogan, Vice Chair                                                                                                  
Senator Gene Therriault                                                                                                         
Senator Hollis French                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Johnny Ellis                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 421(JUD)                                                                                                  
"An Act relating to reconveyances of deeds of trust."                                                                           
     MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 549(JUD) am                                                                                               
"An Act relating to unsolicited communications following an                                                                     
aircraft accident."                                                                                                             
     MOVED SCS CSHB 549(JUD) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 275(FIN)                                                                                                  
"An Act relating to animals, and to the care of and to cruelty                                                                  
to animals."                                                                                                                    
     MOVED SCS CSHB 275(JUD) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATE BILL NO. 397                                                                                                             
"An  Act  relating  to open  meetings  guidelines  applicable  to                                                               
legislators,   to   the   confidentiality   of   complaints   and                                                               
proceedings  involving alleging  violations of  AS 24.60,  and to                                                               
hearings   on  formal   charges  by   the  Select   Committee  on                                                               
Legislative Ethics or its subcommittees."                                                                                       
     SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 421                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: DEED OF TRUST RECONVEYANCE                                                                                         
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) ANDERSON                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
02/02/04       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/02/04       (H)       L&C, JUD                                                                                               
03/19/04       (H)       L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
03/19/04       (H)       Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                                
03/24/04       (H)       L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
03/24/04       (H)       Moved CSHB 421(L&C) Out of Committee                                                                   
03/24/04       (H)       MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                            
03/25/04       (H)       L&C RPT CS(L&C) 7DP                                                                                    
03/25/04       (H)       DP: CRAWFORD, LYNN, GATTO, ROKEBERG,                                                                   
03/25/04       (H)       DAHLSTROM, GUTTENBERG, ANDERSON                                                                        
04/21/04       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/21/04       (H)       Moved CSHB 421(JUD) Out of Committee                                                                   
04/21/04       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
04/22/04       (H)       JUD RPT CS(JUD) 2DP 4NR                                                                                
04/22/04       (H)       DP: GRUENBERG, MCGUIRE; NR: HOLM,                                                                      
04/22/04       (H)       GARA, SAMUELS, OGG                                                                                     
04/28/04       (H)       MOVED TO BOTTOM OF CALENDAR                                                                            
04/28/04       (H)       NOT TAKEN UP 4/28 - ON 4/29 CALENDAR                                                                   
04/30/04       (H)       TRANSMITTED TO (S)                                                                                     
04/30/04       (H)       VERSION: CSHB 421(JUD)                                                                                 
05/01/04       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
05/01/04       (S)       L&C, JUD                                                                                               
05/04/04       (S)       L&C AT 2:00 PM BELTZ 211                                                                               
05/04/04       (S)       Moved CSHB 421(JUD) Out of Committee                                                                   
05/04/04       (S)       MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                            
05/05/04       (S)       L&C RPT 4DP 1NR                                                                                        
05/05/04       (S)       DP: BUNDE, SEEKINS, DAVIS, STEVENS G;                                                                  
05/05/04       (S)       NR: FRENCH                                                                                             
05/06/04       (S)       JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 549                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: UNSOLICITED COMMUNICATION:AIRCRAFT CRASH                                                                           
SPONSOR(s): JUDICIARY                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
03/29/04       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
03/29/04       (H)       JUD                                                                                                    
04/05/04       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/05/04       (H)       -- Meeting Postponed to Tues. 4/6/04 --                                                                
04/06/04       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/06/04       (H)       Moved CSHB 549(JUD) Out of Committee                                                                   
04/06/04       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
04/07/04       (H)       JUD RPT CS(JUD) NT 4DP 1NR 1AM                                                                         
04/07/04       (H)       DP: SAMUELS, HOLM, ANDERSON, MCGUIRE;                                                                  
04/07/04       (H)       NR: GARA; AM: OGG                                                                                      
04/21/04       (H)       TRANSMITTED TO (S)                                                                                     
04/21/04       (H)       VERSION: CSHB 549(JUD) AM                                                                              
04/22/04       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
04/22/04       (S)       L&C, JUD                                                                                               
04/27/04       (S)       L&C AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 211                                                                               
04/27/04       (S)       Moved   SCS   CSHB   549(L&C)   Out   of                                                               
                         Committee                                                                                              
04/27/04       (S)       MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                            
05/01/04       (S)       L&C RPT SCS 1DNP 3NR  SAME TITLE                                                                       
05/01/04       (S)       NR: BUNDE, SEEKINS, STEVENS G;                                                                         
05/01/04       (S)       DNP: FRENCH                                                                                            
05/03/04       (S)       JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
05/03/04       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
05/03/04       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
05/05/04       (S)       JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
05/05/04       (S)       Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                                
05/06/04       (S)       JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 275                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: ANIMALS AND CRUELTY TO ANIMALS                                                                                     
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) CHENAULT                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
04/17/03       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
04/17/03       (H)       L&C, RES                                                                                               
02/20/04       (H)       L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
02/20/04       (H)       <Bill Hearing Postponed>                                                                               
03/29/04       (H)       L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
03/29/04       (H)       Moved CSHB 275(L&C) Out of Committee                                                                   
03/29/04       (H)       MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                            
03/31/04       (H)       RES REFERRAL WAIVED                                                                                    
04/01/04       (H)       L&C RPT CS(L&C) NT 3DP 2NR 1AM                                                                         
04/01/04       (H)       DP: CRAWFORD, LYNN, ANDERSON;                                                                          
04/01/04       (H)       NR: ROKEBERG, DAHLSTROM; AM: GUTTENBERG                                                                
04/01/04       (H)       JUD REFERRAL ADDED AFTER L&C                                                                           
04/01/04       (H)       FIN REFERRAL ADDED AFTER JUD                                                                           
04/05/04       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/05/04       (H)       -- Meeting Postponed to Tues. 4/6/04 --                                                                
04/06/04       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/06/04       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/06/04       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
04/07/04       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/07/04       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/07/04       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
04/14/04       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/14/04       (H)       Moved CSHB 275(JUD) Out of Committee                                                                   
04/14/04       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
04/19/04       (H)       JUD RPT CS(JUD) NT 2DP 2NR                                                                             
04/19/04       (H)       DP: GRUENBERG, MCGUIRE; NR: SAMUELS,                                                                   
04/19/04       (H)       HOLM                                                                                                   
04/26/04       (H)       FIN AT 8:30 AM HOUSE FINANCE 519                                                                       
04/26/04       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/26/04       (H)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
04/27/04       (H)       FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519                                                                       
04/27/04       (H)       Moved CSHB 275(FIN) Out of Committee                                                                   
04/27/04       (H)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
04/28/04       (H)       FIN RPT CS(FIN) NT 5DP 6NR                                                                             
04/28/04       (H)       DP: CROFT, MEYER, CHENAULT, FOSTER,                                                                    
04/28/04       (H)       WILLIAMS; NR: HAWKER, STOLTZE, JOULE,                                                                  
04/28/04       (H)       MOSES, FATE, HARRIS                                                                                    
04/30/04       (H)       TRANSMITTED TO (S)                                                                                     
04/30/04       (H)       VERSION: CSHB 275(FIN)                                                                                 
05/01/04       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
05/01/04       (S)       JUD, FIN                                                                                               
05/03/04       (S)       JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
05/03/04       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
05/03/04       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
05/04/04       (S)       JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
05/04/04       (S)       Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                                
05/06/04       (S)       JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Josh Applebee                                                                                                               
Staff to Representative Anderson                                                                                                
Alaska State Capitol                                                                                                            
Juneau, AK  99801-1182                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented HB 421 for the sponsor                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Brian Merrell                                                                                                               
Alaska Land Title Association                                                                                                   
Anchorage, AK                                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports HB 421                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Vanessa Tondini                                                                                                             
Staff to Representative McGuire                                                                                                 
Alaska State Capitol                                                                                                            
Juneau, AK  99801-1182                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions about HB 549                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Sharalynn Wright                                                                                                            
Staff to Representative Chenault                                                                                                
Alaska State Capitol                                                                                                            
Juneau, AK  99801-1182                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT:  Does not object to SCS CSHB 275(JUD)                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Sally Clampitt                                                                                                              
Alaska Equestrians                                                                                                              
Anchorage, AK                                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT:   Expressed  a concern  about Amendment  1 to                                                             
CCSHB 275(FIN)                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 04-65, SIDE A                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  RALPH   SEEKINS  called  the  Senate   Judiciary  Standing                                                             
Committee  meeting  to  order  at   8:16  a.m.  Senators  French,                                                               
Therriault and  Seekins were  present. The  committee took  up HB                                                             
421.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
            CSHB 421(JUD)-DEED OF TRUST RECONVEYANCE                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. JOSH APPLEBEE, staff to  Representative Tom Anderson, sponsor                                                               
of HB 421,  told members this legislation was  brought forward by                                                               
the Alaska  Land Title Association as  a way to enable  people to                                                               
get  clear title  to their  homes and  mortgages. The  intent and                                                               
purpose of  the bill is  simple: once a  loan is paid,  the title                                                               
must be cleared. He explained  that most Alaska banks rarely hold                                                               
a home loan for more than  30 days. Banks sell those mortgages to                                                               
servicing companies, which collect  the monthly payments over the                                                               
life of  the loan.  Most mortgage  service companies  are located                                                               
outside of Alaska.  Under current law, service  companies are not                                                               
required  to make  sure loans  are  reconveyed and  filed in  the                                                               
state recorder's office once they  are paid off. Once a homeowner                                                               
pays off his mortgage, the lien  on the home held by the mortgage                                                               
service company  should be removed. During  testimony in previous                                                               
committees, a  title insurance company  in Anchorage  stated that                                                               
over  1400  deeds  of  trust  were  pending  reconveyance,  which                                                               
illustrates that  thousands of  deeds across  the state  have not                                                               
been reconveyed.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. APPLEBEE noted  that other states are  experiencing this same                                                               
problem.  HB 421  is  modeled  after an  Idaho  statute that  was                                                               
adopted three  years ago. The  Idaho law  has proved to  speed up                                                               
the  reconveyance process  there. HB  421 is  supported by  other                                                               
sectors of  the housing industry,  including the  Alaska Mortgage                                                               
Bankers   Association   and   the   Alaska   State   Homebuilders                                                               
Association, and  it has been  reviewed by realtors  and bankers.                                                               
HB  421 applies  only  to  those deeds  of  trust  held by  title                                                               
insurance companies.  It does not  provide opportunities  to wipe                                                               
out debt or other obligations  established by deeds of trust. The                                                               
bulk of HB  421 establishes a notification  process and describes                                                               
the form that notification should  take. The notification process                                                               
provides for  quality control and  uniformity. He  indicated that                                                               
Mr. Brian Merrell was available to answer specific questions.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BRIAN MERRELL,  First American  Title Insurance  Company and                                                               
immediate past  president of the  Alaska Land  Title Association,                                                               
affirmed that HB 421 was introduced  at the request of the Alaska                                                               
Land Title Association, in an  effort to assist the Association's                                                               
customers  in clearing  title to  old deeds  of trust  when title                                                               
insurers' have  sufficient information from lenders  to believe a                                                               
mortgage  has   been  paid  off.  The   legislation  additionally                                                               
requires notification to be given  to lenders and their servicers                                                               
of the  intention to reconvey  trusts, which is normally  done at                                                               
their  request. He  noted a  problem arises  because out-of-state                                                               
lenders often do not make those requests.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH commented  that HB  421 appears  to make  perfect                                                               
sense  but  questioned  why  a   law  is  necessary  and  whether                                                               
something  in  the  law  is   prohibiting  title  companies  from                                                               
releasing deeds of trust.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. MERRELL  said the statutes say  very little about how  a deed                                                               
of trust is to be released. He stated:                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     It's just sort of a matter  of common law how the whole                                                                    
     process  is set  up anyway.  But there  certainly is  a                                                                    
     part  of that  common law  requirement that  the lender                                                                    
     request  that  this  reconveyance   happen  and,  as  I                                                                    
     mentioned,  so  many  times  we  find  that  a  lot  of                                                                    
     particularly out-of-state lenders  don't follow through                                                                    
     on  making that  request or  they send  the information                                                                    
     for the request  to be made through  their old borrower                                                                    
     who  may have  sold  the property  and  has no  further                                                                    
     interest in doing  anything with it so it  just ends up                                                                    
     being thrown  in the  trash. So this  would help  us to                                                                    
     help future owners  of the property - the  ones who own                                                                    
     the property and come in  later to do transactions that                                                                    
     find that  these deeds of trust  haven't been released,                                                                    
     to help them  out, to make sure it gets  done. But I do                                                                    
     agree with  you, it  is sort of  a common  sense thing.                                                                    
     The problem  is that  there isn't  any common  sense in                                                                    
     the law right now so we need to put it there.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  noted that  with no  further questions  or persons                                                               
wishing to testify, public testimony was closed.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  moved CSHB 421(JUD)  and its attached  fiscal notes                                                               
from committee with individual recommendations.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  noted without objection,  the motion  carried. The                                                               
committee took a brief at-ease.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
    CSHB 549(JUD)am-UNSOLICITED COMMUNICATION:AIRCRAFT CRASH                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. VANESSA  TONDINI, staff to  Representative McGuire,  chair of                                                               
the  House Judiciary  Committee,  reminded members  that she  has                                                               
presented  HB  549  several  times so  was  available  to  answer                                                               
questions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS asked  Ms. Tondini  if she  was able  to summarize                                                               
some  of  the conversations  that  have  taken place  about  this                                                               
legislation since its last hearing.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. TONDINI  explained that a committee  member expressed concern                                                               
about the penalty  and she believes an amendment  may be proposed                                                               
to address that concern.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT moved the following amendment [Amendment 1]:                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     On page 2, line 9 [version Q], change $100,000 to $10,000.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TONDINI informed  members that  Representative McGuire  does                                                               
not object to that amendment.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  noted that  without  objection,  Amendment 1  was                                                               
adopted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH  moved  to  adopt Amendment  2,  which  reads  as                                                               
follows:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
                      A M E N D M E N T  2                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     OFFERED IN THE SENATE                   BY SENATOR FRENCH                                                                  
     TO SCS CSHB 549(L&C)                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, lines 8-12:                                                                                                        
          Delete all material and insert:                                                                                       
                    "(d) The attorney general or an                                                                             
     aggrieved person  may institute a civil  action against                                                                    
     a  person who  violates  this section.  In addition  to                                                                    
     injunctive  and compensatory  relief,  a civil  penalty                                                                    
         not to exceed $10,000 may be imposed for each                                                                          
     violation."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS objected for the purpose of discussion.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH  explained that the  purpose of Amendment 2  is to                                                               
turn what  is proposed  to be  a crime  into a  civil wrongdoing.                                                               
Amendment  2  would  allow  either the  attorney  general  or  an                                                               
aggrieved person to  bring a civil action against  an attorney or                                                               
an  agent of  the  airlines  to seek  redress  for any  intrusion                                                               
during the  45-day cooling  off period. He  opined that  the main                                                               
benefit of  Amendment 2 is  that it will  allow the wrongs  to be                                                               
addressed. He said assuming that  an overworked district attorney                                                               
will file  a criminal complaint  against a lawyer  for contacting                                                               
an injured victim  of an airplane accident within 45  days of the                                                               
accident is unlikely.  He believes the caseloads  of the district                                                               
attorneys' offices will preclude them  from taking action on what                                                               
they will  see as a civil  issue. Amendment 2 will  put the power                                                               
in the attorney general's office  or the aggrieved person's hands                                                               
to take action. He repeated  that he believes this bill addresses                                                               
a civil wrong, not a crime.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TONDINI  maintained   that  Representative  McGuire  opposes                                                               
Amendment 2  as she believes  a criminal penalty  is appropriate.                                                               
Such  a  penalty  will  get  the  attention  of  the  Alaska  Bar                                                               
Association.  The existing  penalty in  HB 549  does not  include                                                               
jail time.  She furthered that  although the  district attorneys'                                                               
caseload  may be  high,  that  is also  the  case  for the  civil                                                               
division of the attorney general's office.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asked what the sanctions  would be if an attorney is                                                               
convicted of this crime.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TONDINI said  she believes  the bar  association would  take                                                               
notice of a  criminal conviction on an attorney's  record and may                                                               
disbar that attorney or take other appropriate action.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH  said he believes  the answer to that  question is                                                               
"it depends." He  said the bar association  sometimes waits until                                                               
a criminal  action is  complete before  taking action,  which may                                                               
result in  an unnecessary delay. He  said if he was  charged with                                                               
this crime, he would insist on a  jury trial and appeal it for as                                                               
long  as possible.  He believes  the civil  route is  cleaner and                                                               
faster, and more  likely to lead to prosecutions  than a criminal                                                               
action.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS asked  Senator French  if  he would  use the  same                                                               
tactic to drag the case out for a civil action.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH  said the  "aura"  of  a criminal  conviction  is                                                               
higher and a  civil charge would more likely  lead to settlement.                                                               
The  two  parties  could  settle   their  disagreement  over  the                                                               
practice of  driving airplane passengers  to the  hospital, which                                                               
is what this bill aims to stop.  He said he sees Amendment 2 as a                                                               
rational first  step; if, in  two years  it has not  produced any                                                               
results, the undesired activity can be made a crime.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT  noted that  a criminal  charge could  only be                                                               
brought  by  the  state,  whereas Amendment  2  would  permit  an                                                               
aggrieved person to bring a civil charge.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
With  no further  discussion, the  roll was  called. Amendment  2                                                               
failed to  be adopted with  Senator French in favor  and Senators                                                               
Therriault, Ogan and Seekins opposed.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  said he  believes the criminal  penalty will  be a                                                               
greater deterrent.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OGAN moved  SCS CSHB  549(JUD) and  its attached  fiscal                                                               
notes from committee with individual recommendations.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH objected.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
The motion to move SCS  CSHB 548(JUD) from committee carried with                                                               
Senators  Ogan,  Therriault  and  Seekins in  favor  and  Senator                                                               
French opposed.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 8:40 - 8:47 a.m.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
             HB 275-ANIMALS AND CRUELTY TO ANIMALS                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS noted  that at the last  meeting, members discussed                                                               
some provisions that were troublesome.  He said over time, he has                                                               
worked with  people from the equine  industry, veterinarians, and                                                               
animal  advocates to  find a  way to  adequately protect  animals                                                               
without being  "extremist." He  said in  his proposal,  Section 1                                                               
addresses the  minimal standards necessary for  animals. He noted                                                               
that because  Alaska has  a very  small number  of veterinarians,                                                               
the  bill   requires  reasonable  medical  care   to  the  extent                                                               
available and  necessary. He  added that  his proposal  also says                                                               
that the  final determination  of whether  the standards  of care                                                               
are met shall be based on  the professional opinion of a licensed                                                               
veterinarian. He  noted the department  can adopt  regulations to                                                               
implement Section 1  and that the bill is too  open-ended in that                                                               
the department would  set other standards for  health and safety.                                                               
He  said   he  believes  his   proposal  contains   a  compatible                                                               
definition of the minimum standard of care.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH asked  why the sanitation portion of  the bill was                                                               
left out of Chair Seekins' proposal.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   SEEKINS  said   his  proposal   addresses  a   reasonable                                                               
sanitation level and that no  standard environment applies to all                                                               
animals. He said  his proposal is designed  to provide reasonable                                                               
guidelines  and  allows  a  veterinarian  would  make  the  final                                                               
determination as to what is a proper environment.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  expressed concern that some  people believe animals                                                               
should have the same protections as humans. He explained:                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     I mean honestly, my daughter  was on a tour in Kachemak                                                                    
     Bay for school.  She was a chaperone  for younger kids,                                                                    
     and the  people that were  giving the tour  that hosted                                                                    
     the place  where they  stayed...were out  there talking                                                                    
     about how the starfish  murder the clams.... That's how                                                                    
     they  described  it to  these  kids  and my  daughter's                                                                    
     going  they  what?  They  murder   the  clams?  I  mean                                                                    
     honestly, there are some people  out there that are, as                                                                    
     far as  animal rights, an  animal doesn't have  a right                                                                    
     to  murder  another animal  to  continue  to live,  you                                                                    
     know, God or the natural  order or whatever your belief                                                                    
     is  set it  up that  way.  So that's  what I'm  worried                                                                    
     about. Those are my concerns  with these kind of bills.                                                                    
     Like  I  said, I  have  friends  that have  open-ranged                                                                    
     horses over  in Kachemak  Bay. It's a  tough way  for a                                                                    
     horse  to make  it  through the  winter.  Some of  them                                                                    
     might not  have. I know  there's one of them,  a living                                                                    
     legend in  our neighborhood  that had  a big  old chunk                                                                    
     out of its rear end from where  a bear got a hold of it                                                                    
     in  the spring  when it  was born.  So it's  all pretty                                                                    
     subjective. One person's standard  of good care will be                                                                    
     another person's  level of outrage.  Those are  some of                                                                    
     my  problems  with  putting some  of  these  things  in                                                                    
     statute.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS agreed with Senator  Ogan and said according to his                                                               
veterinarian, his  horses are the healthiest  in Alaska, although                                                               
others might not believe they are appropriately cared for.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
He then explained the second section of his proposal [Sec.                                                                      
03.55.110] pertains to animal cruelty. He explained:                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     If you  did believe  here that  there was  some cruelty                                                                    
     that was  taking place  to an animal,  it says  you can                                                                    
     bring that  complaint with a  public or  private animal                                                                    
     control agency or organization  - the department, which                                                                    
     is here  the Department of  Environmental Conservation,                                                                    
     or with a peace officer....                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     So, let's say it's the  Alaska Equine Rescue. They take                                                                    
     a look  at the animal  and they think in  their opinion                                                                    
     there is no problem there.  They may just not refer it.                                                                    
     If they think there is  a problem there, they may refer                                                                    
     it to a peace officer.  That peace officer then has the                                                                    
     process  of -  the  availability of  being  able to  go                                                                    
     through the process, to get  a search warrant and to go                                                                    
     out and  take a look.  That is  - when they  get there,                                                                    
     they have several  options. They can say  well, I don't                                                                    
     think this  warrants further  investigation or  if they                                                                    
     do think  it warrants further investigation  they could                                                                    
     actually  place   the  animal   or  the   animals  into                                                                    
     protective custody.  And then at that  point, when that                                                                    
     police  officer felt  that that  was necessary,  they'd                                                                    
     have to  request an  immediate inspection  and decision                                                                    
     by  a licensed  veterinarian  and  that placement  into                                                                    
     protective custody  is in  the immediate  best interest                                                                    
     of  the  animal. If  no  veterinarian  is available  to                                                                    
     perform an  inspection, then  that police  officer must                                                                    
     communicate with a veterinarian  who has, after hearing                                                                    
     a  description  of  the  animal  and  its  environment,                                                                    
     decided it  is in  the immediate  best interest  of the                                                                    
     animal that  it be  placed into protective  custody. If                                                                    
     the police  officer is not  able to communicate  with a                                                                    
     veterinarian, before  the officer  may take  the animal                                                                    
     the officer  must decide  it is  in the  immediate best                                                                    
     interest  of the  animal to  be placed  into protective                                                                    
     custody.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  said  the  word  "seize"  has  been  replaced  by                                                               
protective  custody, which  he  believes is  the  intent of  most                                                               
people. He  said, regarding where  the animal would go,  it could                                                               
be placed in  the custody of Alaska Equine Rescue,  the ASPCA, or                                                               
any organization  that is willing  to care for the  animal during                                                               
the interim.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS described  Sec. 03.55.130 to say that  if, once the                                                               
animal  is taken  into protective  custody, it  appears the  best                                                               
course of  action is  to destroy the  animal, the  police officer                                                               
would have  to make contact  with a veterinarian but,  if contact                                                               
is  not possible,  the police  officer  would have  to make  that                                                               
decision.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH  asked  if  that section  is  identical  to  Sec.                                                               
03.55.130 in the original bill.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  said he thought so  but said he changed  the terms                                                               
to  "protective  custody" and  "destroy."  He  said the  proposal                                                               
provides  that  the court  could  make  some decisions  regarding                                                               
adoption and  destruction. He  noted the  most difficult  part of                                                               
the proposal  for him  was to get  consensus on  what constitutes                                                               
cruelty  to animals  in  the  first degree.  He  noted that,  for                                                               
example,  some people  want to  prepare a  dog or  cat for  human                                                               
consumption. Because  that topic gets into  cultural discussions,                                                               
that section  was removed.  Instead the  bill defines  cruelty as                                                               
knowingly inflicting  physical pain or prolonged  suffering on an                                                               
animal, using  a decompression chamber  to kill, using  poison to                                                               
kill, or  failing to  care for  an animal,  which results  in the                                                               
animal's  death. He  noted that  scientific research  accepted by                                                               
government standards would not apply.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN expressed  concern that the definition  is too broad                                                               
in that  a person  could be  charged with  animal cruelty  in the                                                               
second degree if that person left  his dog outside and it was hit                                                               
by a car.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS said  he had the most  difficulty getting agreement                                                               
on  the definition  of animal  cruelty in  the second  degree. He                                                               
said  he believes  the current  animal  cruelty law  needs to  be                                                               
expanded,  especially  in  light  of  recent  animal  atrocities,                                                               
without including  accepted practices in the  state. He suggested                                                               
adopting  the  content of  his  proposal  up to  Sec.  11.61.142,                                                               
Cruelty  to  animals  in  the   second  degree,  which  could  be                                                             
addressed next session.  He said in effect, that  would provide a                                                               
definition  for minimum  standards of  care and  would allow  for                                                               
protective custody.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OGAN moved  to adopt  a conceptual  amendment [Amendment                                                               
1], which is the proposal  offered by Chair Seekins, and includes                                                               
the material on pages 1 through 5, up to Sec. 11.61.142.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OGAN  clarified  that  the  conceptual  amendment  would                                                               
replace the contents of CSHB 275(FIN).                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH commented  that  CSHB 275(FIN)  passed the  House                                                               
after a lot of hard work.  He expressed concern that he was under                                                               
the impression the committee planned  to remove one definition of                                                               
animal  cruelty in  the first  degree and  address steel  jaw leg                                                               
holds, snares,  and the problem  of securing animals in  the back                                                               
of pick-up  trucks. He believes  everything else in the  bill has                                                               
been well  thought through so he  was asking what options  he was                                                               
being offered.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  clarified that Amendment  1 would establish  a new                                                               
committee substitute.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH objected  because he believed the  bill before the                                                               
committee could be  fine-tuned in a short time. He  asked to hear                                                               
from  the   sponsor  or  staff   about  the   proposed  committee                                                               
substitute.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 04-65, SIDE B                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SHARALYN  WRIGHT,  staff to  Representative  Chenault,  told                                                               
members  she has  received 113  telephone calls  about this  bill                                                               
since the  last Senate Judiciary  Committee hearing.  The callers                                                               
want to  see the bill passed  as it is, however,  because session                                                               
is nearing  its end,  the sponsor is  willing to  accept whatever                                                               
the committee passes out.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH asked  Ms. Wright  to articulate  further on  the                                                               
phone calls she has received.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WRIGHT explained  that HB  275 has  morphed from  a one-page                                                               
bill to  being combined with Representative  Crawford's bill. The                                                               
House  Judiciary  Committee then  spent  20  hours on  the  bill,                                                               
during which  it took public  testimony. Animal  control officers                                                               
statewide scrutinized  it. She added,  "If I could say  that most                                                               
of our  communications came  from Anchorage  or Fairbanks  or the                                                               
Mat-Su, I would tell you  that but it isn't. Everybody everywhere                                                               
is  concerned  about  the  Karen  Botley (ph)  case  -  the  most                                                               
egregious cases  that we've had that  are just a reflection  of a                                                               
civilization that  just shouldn't  be and for  these folks  to be                                                               
able to  continue to go  on and abuse  animals in this  way, it's                                                               
just not correct."                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. WRIGHT  said she was  unable to  get a sectional  analysis of                                                               
Chair   Seekins'  proposal   [Amendment  1]   but  Representative                                                               
Chenault's  intent was  to  deal  with the  worst  cases. He  has                                                               
worked on this legislation for four years.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH  asked if Chair  Seekins' proposal deals  with the                                                               
worst cases.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. WRIGHT  said it  probably does. She  maintained, "I  think it                                                               
was for  your information but if  this is actually what  the bill                                                               
does, we're  going to take  it and run with  it. I'm not  here to                                                               
object."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  said he  is appalled by  animal cruelty  cases like                                                               
everyone  else and  believes  the  proposed committee  substitute                                                               
deals with those cases. He said  in reality, only the worst cases                                                               
will be prosecuted. He is  concerned however, that in reaction to                                                               
the  worst cases,  people will  attempt to  fix the  situation by                                                               
"making  it so  that farmers  cannot farm  or dog  mushers cannot                                                               
mush and  there are those  out there  that don't want  farmers to                                                               
farm or dog mushers to  mush." He believes the proposed committee                                                               
substitute provides a good balance.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS took public testimony.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALLY  CLAMPITT,  Alaska Equestrians,  thanked  members  for                                                               
taking this issue on at this  late date and for their willingness                                                               
to leave  the basics  of the bill  intact. She  expressed concern                                                               
that Amendment  1 increases  the defenses  of cruelty  statute to                                                               
include  some   of  the  disciplines   of  riding   and  training                                                               
practices.  She noted  that training  practices were  put in  the                                                               
defenses of  cruelty statute  in 1998.  She was  not sure  of the                                                               
need to  defend a  couple of disciplines  of riding  and training                                                               
practices as opposed  to the condition of the animal  or the acts                                                               
committed. She recommended that  those provisions be removed. She                                                               
questioned why  rodeos were  included and  said one  person could                                                               
consider a  lot of training  practices cruel while  another would                                                               
find those same practices acceptable.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  pointed out that training  practices were included                                                               
in the version of the bill that was referred to the committee.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. CLAMPITT repeated  that was put into statute in  1998 and was                                                               
slipped in at the very end.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  said  he  believes the  proposed  CS  covers  the                                                               
egregious situations  and he does "not  want to love it  to death                                                               
and kill the whole thing."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. CLAMPITT agreed with that approach.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS announced that without objection, Senator Ogan's                                                                  
motion to adopt Amendment 1 was adopted.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN moved SCS CSHB 275(JUD) and its attached fiscal                                                                    
notes from committee with individual recommendations.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS announced that without objection, the motion                                                                      
carried. He then announced an at-ease from 9:30 a.m. to 9:38                                                                    
a.m.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 04-66, SIDE A                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Upon reconvening, CHAIR SEEKINS recessed the meeting to the call                                                                
of the chair.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                

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